Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

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    aammondd

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    Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:36 pm

    Before inundating you all with walls of text just a simple question.
    You can also answer why not as well.

    Personally for me the short answer God is the answer to the question of Free Will and my about the true nature of my being.
    My definition of God is similar to the perfect chair however its the perfect self. Elaboration will come later. For now I want to hear what you think.
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    seek14

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by seek14 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:12 pm

    my thought on god.

    The story so far. In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very unhappy and has widely been regarded as a bad move.

    i read a quote by einstein and some point comparing human knowledge on god to a child in a library of every known language. we know that there must be some order to these things that we cant comprehend. theres to much to take in and will never be able to be understood.

    i dont believe in god, at least not the Judeo/christian god , but i can't say for sure that god or gods don't exist. i don't have any empirical evidence to show that there is no god, and i doubt that science will ever be able to fully disprove god. so i live my life in a way that reflects who i am as a person and i hope that its good enough if there is, and if there isn't ill die knowing that overall i was a damn decent person. my ideas on the subject are a lot more complex than this but this is what i will leave it at for now.
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    alvspr

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by alvspr on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:53 am

    Sorry aammondd are you asking for why people believe in God or are you asking a more general question as to whether or not people believe in God or not?
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    aammondd

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:41 am

    Take it how you will. For me its more why your believe (if you do) or not (if you don't).

    For me I have examined my own beliefs a great deal for a long time and I have come to one inescapable conclusion.

    Either I have free will or it is an illusion. If it is illusion then I shouldn't be concerned. However if I do have free will (and I choose to believe so tongue ) then there must be something more than simply physics/chemistry to what I am. That's where my search began with trying to determine what is my "true" self. Long story made short I have found that answer in the God that I know.

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Dinwar on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:55 pm

    Here's my view: Gods are like electricity to me. I don't know about electricity. I know what it would take, and frankly have no interest in putting forth that effort. So I don't pretend to know it. I dabble in a little--I can wire a plug or a light, for example--but I don't speak about it very often.

    Similarly, the question of gods is outside my area of expertise. I don't personally believe in them, but that's a tentative conclusion; I admit I could be wrong. That said, it's not my concern.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by DuDZiK on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:00 pm

    I am a staunch Apatheist.

    The old forum had a big part to play in that. After spending a lot of time thinking and debating about the topic, and being a believer on both sides of the (general) field, I became extremely apathetic about the matter of God or Not-God.
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    aammondd

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:14 pm

    To any one posting here please note

    Because my belief in God stems from a strong stance on Free Will my position is that trying to "prove" God to someone is not only impossible but a real waste of time. Ill share my reasons share my thoughts but that's the extent of it. I pass no judgments on others but those that they earn through their actions and attitudes. I can disagree with beliefs without being disagreeable.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Gregoriouse The Great on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:56 pm

    Friedrich Nietzsche once said god is dead. But, I've been around the cyber world long enough to know god is Zedd.


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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Dinwar on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:40 pm

    Gregoriouse The Great wrote: Friedrich Nietzsche once said god is dead. But, I've been around the cyber world long enough to know god is Zedd.
    Not anymore. He's one of us now. Wink
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by alvspr on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:14 pm

    I'm an athiest.  Always have been.  I have an understanding of the world around me and it's kind of hard to put into words.

    If any of you have seen the works of Derren Brown, then you may have an idea of where I'm coming from.

    I don't believe in God.  I believe God/s are man made.  We as a species think them up.  I think Richard Dawkins went into the reasons why human's are preprogrammed to believe in god.

    I also believe religion can be a dangerous thing.  In a very general sense, religion dictating what is taught, what government policies are brought in, in my opinion is not necessarily a good thing.  On a very basic general level, as an example, I don't see what the problem is in allowing homosexuals to marry.  But there is this religious stance that opposes it (I also know of non religious people that oppose it as well mind you).

    Having said that, Religion provides a lot of GOOD things as well.  I certainly don't discount the good things.  I in fact even saw God work.  Years ago a friend of mine was addicted to drugs and the only thing that saved her was her belief in god.  People who are religous may say that that is proof enough - I say that doesn't prove god, it just proves the power of belief.  I of course would not dare dream of taking that away from my friend.  Her belief in God saved her, she is a much better person because of her belief in god.

    EDIT:

    This has been my flow of conversation with believers in the past and please don't take this as being rude (refer to my comments above):

    ME: So the bible is written by man yet the bible says that man is imperfect so the bible according to itself is wrong?

    Believer: Man wrote the bible INSPIRED by god so the bible is perfect.

    ME: But what about Man's interpretation of the bible, if man is inperfect that he is imperfectly interpreting the bible therefore whatever he believes in is wrong.

    Believer: It's called faith.

    Me: Oh...

    So, I am an athiest.  An while I can see the bad things that occur with religion and belief I can see the goodness in the belief of god as well.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:44 am

    Well us Mormons,speaking collectively not individually, don't deify the scriptures to that way but I sure understand where you are coming from there.  I can't agree with Dawkins because it opens the door to the loss of free will. If some thought patterns are pre-programmed then where does the programming start and end. Is something not programming just because it agrees with you? I have to reject the programming argument in favor of the following:

    Since there is no place to stand to get an objective view of myself I must choose to believe that I am experiencing what I perceive and that these thoughts are my own and of my own free will. I must accept as axiomic that my choice of thought is indeed a choice and not the result of any other influence or else the very idea of free will is but illusion, and an illusion that again without an objective view of oneself cannot be proven. In fact the very fact that there is no where to stand makes the very concept irrelevant. The very ability to recognize my own existence gives credence to idea that I am a free thinking individual and therefore my beliefs are my choice.

    My complex view of God,reality and so forth are a result of this one fact. The fact that I choose my thoughts, and those thoughts reinforce the fact of my existence, then I choose to think about the nature of my existence. (What am I? and more importantly the age old question "Why me?" Very Happy   )

    The short answer is that my experience has taught me that there is a 'God' for lack of a better term and that His perspective on it all is infinitely greater than mine. That being said the relationship is one of parent and child and that there is significant reason for the similitude in our own parent child relationships. This life has been designed for the express purpose of proving to ourselves the importance and the power of this free agency. Just as any child must learn to make and live with the consequences of their own choices so must we when it comes things of eternity.

    *Fading in and out now its late*
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    alvspr

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by alvspr on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:54 pm

    I don't consider it as a total loss of free will.

    I mean, people are predisposed for certain things anyway - such as cancer and illness etc depending on their genes. I don't think it a stretch to think that thought people can be predisposed to certain thought processes.

    Also, I think that we as human beings can't function at 100% thinking power 100% of the time. There are periods of time where we're concentrating at higher levels, such as at work, study etc, but that at other times our brain doesn't function at that higher level, so the brain kind of "shuts off" so to speak, or at least doesn't function at that higher level. What it does instead is travels the path of least resistence. That path of least resistence is when we're more susceptible to outside influence. It's why a lot of televison direct order shows are on late at night lol.

    But just because we might be influenced by marketing etc to make us think it was our idea to buy something, i think it can go deeper.

    Have a look at some of the stuff Derren Brown has done and you'll understand where I'm coming from.
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    aammondd

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:29 pm

    I tend to agree with you but this only reinforces the idea that a free will can choose to override the influences. My point is that free will has to be part of my nature and is not the bi-product of a
    "random happy accident" (ie illusion) . Similar to the line in Contact. "If its just us seems like a lot of wasted space." If this is just it, seems like a lot of wastes of effort. {I could just as easily choose to be happy to let what ever will happen, happen to me}
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by _-Scarlett-_ on Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:56 am

    alvspr wrote:I mean, people are predisposed for certain things anyway - such as cancer and illness etc depending on their genes.
    Sorry, as a Biologist I have to argue with this thought. Yes people can be genetically predisposed to certain illnesses and cancer, however, environment plays a big factor into whether or not you will be affected, and to what extent.

    I think this can translate into my thoughts on free-will. People are born into certain situations which might predispose them towards a certain lifestyle, but people can most often always find a way to overcome (or destroy) the life they were born into.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by alvspr on Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:56 pm

    Oh i have no doubt of that. Just because someone is genetically predisposed to certain illnessess etc doesn't mean that they can't live their life's to give them the best possible chance to not fall ill.

    Same goes with the whole thought processes.

    My point is that we do have free will but we have to EXERCISE that free will. And that's where a lot of people fail.
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    aammondd

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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:40 pm

    I completely agree with that.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Gregoriouse The Great on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:38 am

    Dinwar wrote:
    Gregoriouse The Great wrote: Friedrich Nietzsche once said god is dead. But, I've been around the cyber world long enough to know god is Zedd.
    Not anymore. He's one of us now. Wink
    Doesn't change much. Hes still regarded as such.


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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by _-Scarlett-_ on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:29 am

    alvspr wrote:My point is that we do have free will but we have to EXERCISE that free will.  And that's where a lot of people fail.
    I can definitely agree with that.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Galactus on Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:10 pm

    Dinwar wrote:
    Gregoriouse The Great wrote: Friedrich Nietzsche once said god is dead. But, I've been around the cyber world long enough to know god is Zedd.
    Not anymore. He's one of us now. Wink
    One of us, One of us....

    As for the topic at hand: God is a primitive man's answer to why. We outgrew god, as a species, a long time ago. The concept of god has hung around because of an emotional attachment to a stone age ghost story, but the questions that "god" was the answer to have been answered in a much simpler, but far more beautiful fashion by man's mind. Science has reduced god to the straws at which the desperate grasp in order to fill in the gaps in their own knowledge. First we moved god out of his position as creator, then we proved that he was unnecessary for the existence of life in all it's various and sundry forms. All that is left to god is the realm of the "spirit", and that is where he belongs. Among the rest of the ghosts.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Galactus on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:57 pm

    I broke a thread already? Darn.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by aammondd on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:58 am

    I can accept that it may be a hard wired "delusion" but based on my experiences I would have to reject my own mind to claim it so which puts me in a very precarious position of having to put my "trust/faith" in someone else's interpretation of the facts. If I do that I lose that part of myself that is responsible for my life. It's a kind of paradox. Both scenarios leave me with the requirement to have faith. The first in my own experiences and interpretation and the second to reject them as being what someone else says they are. So if I have to choose a life based on a faith then I choose one based on my own observations. So objectively if its delusion its one I'm happy to choose for there is no place to stand to prove otherwise.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by FreeWill on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:18 am

    Sorry Aammondd, every time I see this thread I see a very different quesiton. One that, at least for believers, is harder to answer. I don't see "Why God?" I see "Why? God." the diference is profound.

    To answer the first quesiton I need only to look into my own experiences and find that these either prove, disprove or cast a measure of doubt upon the exisitence of God. For me the answer is yes there is a God. Am I able to prove that to anyone else? No. No more than they could cause me to ignore my own experiences and prove God does not exist. But in the end the answer does not really challenge me much or cause me to become a better person. If I argue with an Atheist about our repsective positions at best we agree to disagree and at worst we are left feeling angry and bitter toward one another. Not really a good place to land. Truth is that most Christians want to change Atheists minds because they doubt their own positions and forcing someone else to agree with them help solidify their own stance or they feel attacked by a different positoin.
    I don't care if someone else believes in God. It is not my job to make them change, as a person of faith I trust God and know he will work out what is best for them and for myself.

    The other question though causes me to have to think about what i am doing in relation to my stated belief. This life is difficult and filled with painful and terrible things. Hate, murder, slavery, division, sexism, and all similar things cause harm in this world. So I am left asking "Why? God." That requires me to find out what I believe God is doing about these things. As one who believes in God then, I am left with one very tough thought. If I beliege God is, and believe God is good then why do bad things happen? I don't have a perfect answer but find myself thinking that while this world is full of terrible things, there are also many good things and that my choices are part of either the solution or the problem. I can choose to do those things which are harmful and cruel or I can choose to do things which make the world better. I can stand by while I see my neighbors talking hate about groups who are not like them. (In my case this would include LBGT and people of non white race.) Or I could choose to act, speak out for those who have no voice in my community, this is not easy but it may be right.

    As a side thought (and this may need it's own thread, if so feel free to move it), the church I pastor in is having to make a dicision about our stance on Homosexuality. We have attempted to stradle the fence on this for some time but that is failing, a thing that I welcome. In 2018 we are meeting in St. Louis Mo to discus the issues and present our way forward. I am firmly in the camp of full inclusion, gay marriage and even gay clergy. I do not see homosexuality as a sin. This is one way I can hope to act for those who have no voice in my own church.
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    Re: Shall I Christen this category - Why God?

    Post by Ckyle7 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:47 am

    aammondd wrote:
    Personally for me the short answer God is the answer to the question of Free Will and my about the true nature of my being.
    My definition of God is similar to the perfect chair however its the perfect self. Elaboration will come later. For now I want to hear what you think.

    I see God as the perfect story. A tale told at bedtime to teach children how to be good and kind. A force that police our virtues and steer us in a different direction, when we stray. Sometimes..... The afterthought is always "sometimes....."

    seek14 wrote:
    i dont believe in god, at least not the Judeo/christian god , but i can't say for sure that god or gods don't exist. i don't have any empirical evidence to show that there is no god, and i doubt that science will ever be able to fully disprove god. so i live my life in a way that reflects who i am as a person and i hope that its good enough if there is, and if there isn't ill die knowing that overall i was a damn decent person. my ideas on the subject are a lot more complex than this but this is what i will leave it at for now.

    I have to agree with this sentiment, it closely resembles my own. Food for thought, there is no scientific or empirical evidence to suggest that being  a decent person gets us far in life, yet some of us are. Doing things, often without any kind of "reward" because we want to be a good person. It feels better than being a selfish person. Kindness and selflessness are often their own reward during the act. We model this to our young. The basis of many religions mirror these ideas and although (in my opinion) some have been warped, the core of being a good person, is the reason they still exist.

    Dinwar wrote:Here's my view: Gods are like electricity to me. I don't know about electricity. I know what it would take, and frankly have no interest in putting forth that effort. So I don't pretend to know it. I dabble in a little--I can wire a plug or a light, for example--but I don't speak about it very often.

    What a delightful metaphor. I like it.

    alvspr wrote:

    Having said that, Religion provides a lot of GOOD things as well.  I certainly don't discount the good things.  I in fact even saw God work.  Years ago a friend of mine was addicted to drugs and the only thing that saved her was her belief in god.  People who are religous may say that that is proof enough - I say that doesn't prove god, it just proves the power of belief.  I of course would not dare dream of taking that away from my friend.  Her belief in God saved her, she is a much better person because of her belief in god.

    EDIT:

    This has been my flow of conversation with believers in the past and please don't take this as being rude (refer to my comments above):

    ME: So the bible is written by man yet the bible says that man is imperfect so the bible according to itself is wrong?

    Believer: Man wrote the bible INSPIRED by god so the bible is perfect.

    ME: But what about Man's interpretation of the bible, if man is inperfect that he is imperfectly interpreting the bible therefore whatever he believes in is wrong.

    Believer: It's called faith.

    Me: Oh...

    So, I am an athiest.  An while I can see the bad things that occur with religion and belief I can see the goodness in the belief of god as well.

    This is one of the only things that keeps my mind open about God. The good this belief (faith) can do.

    I also like to rephrase it, whenever anyone asks me if I believe in God. I had my son (a while ago-he was 5) ask me if God was real. I told him that this was a decision he had to make himself. I said I would provide him with any religious instruction he wanted. I would like him to study many fields before deciding. I also said that his choice was what made him who he wants to be but no matter the decision he makes, I want him to know I will always be honest and answer his questions as truthfully as I could. He replied "so, is God real?" I said that again, he has to make this decision himself. He was very frustrated so I rephrased the whole idea.

    "Azzy, I believe in something beyond us, many things that we don't yet fully understand and I also believe in a very powerful force. It is called humanity. You have learned about faith in God but there is something else that is really hard to believe in. Faith in humanity. Everyone has the ability to be a good person. Everyone has a choice to learn from the mistakes they make or the decisions to be a bad person. It is never too late to become the best you can be."

    This may make me just as silly as one who has faith in God and it probably makes me a romantic fool. I realise I have to teach him when to judge when someone is not being a decent person and this is an ongoing instruction but my reasoning is this:

    It is easy to make a decision about whether to steal that chocolate cookie, when you know your mother will find out and punish you. Not stealing the cookie makes you smart and self preserving.

    But to not steal the cookie because it is the wrong thing to do? Not stealing it because you know you didn't earn it? That's something entirely different.

    Some people need faith in God (wrath of the mother who will punish you for your wrongdoings).
    Some people need faith in humanity and themselves.

    Galactus wrote:
    As for the topic at hand: God is a primitive man's answer to why.  We outgrew god, as a species, a long time ago.  The concept of god has hung around because of an emotional attachment to a stone age ghost story, but the questions that "god" was the answer to have been answered in a much simpler, but far more beautiful fashion by man's mind.  Science has reduced god to the straws at which the desperate grasp in order to fill in the gaps in their own knowledge.  First we moved god out of his position as creator, then we proved that he was unnecessary for the existence of life in all it's various and sundry forms.  All that is left to god is the realm of the "spirit", and that is where he belongs.  Among the rest of the ghosts.

    This reminds me of ancient history and the study of the reasoning behind the great myths of time. So many cultures have written stories about creation, in an attempt to explain a natural occurrence, provide a moral compass or demonstrate links to past generations. God is a story, that may affect some but to others, may just be a fascinating story to enjoy or shape their imagination. There is so much about God that I instinctively loathe, having seen the affect religion or traditional values may have on young children but, at the end of the day, I do appreciate exactly what you say. I do like a good ghost story. Smile



    So I will now answer this question, to some degree, for myself. This, of course, is based purely on opinion, experience, love, dislike, resentment, relationships, jealousy, pride, loneliness, belonging, honesty, fallacy, academics, stories and culture but yeah, that's the package we all come in to each evaluation holding.

    I do not believe in God. I have tried, Many times but the aspects about believing in God, that have resonated to me, I have acquired in other ways.

    Whenever someone asks me why I don't believe in God (the Christian idea of God), I am reminded of the reason I cannot attend our end of year Christmas Scripture service at school. Every service, the students are told that they are born with sin. Every Christmas, they are told that they cannot be rid of this sin unless they accept Jesus in to their life and no matter how hard I try, I cannot justify telling a child that they are brought in to this world, bad. I have always been undecided about God but this kind of scripture always reminds me of the parts I don't accept.

    I follow a few ideals and innate sin isn't one of them. I teach my son and the kids in my class a few choice things:

    Every action has a consequence.
    People are born a mould and often the things they chose to do, decide who they will become.We can be shaped by our decisions but it is never to late to learn from mistakes.
    Life is short, make sure you show people trust, love and honesty.
    Treat others how you desire to be treated in return.
    Treat meanness with a smile, at least you can walk away being a good person.


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